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    sonicbomb.com :: View topic - Hiroshima Explosion Photos

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    Grapple
    Sunset (1 mt)


    Joined: Mar 03, 2008
    Posts: 115
    Location: Malden Island

    PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 3:35 pm Reply with quote

    Only the black & white version show above.For the color version i only have this link:

    http://pictopia.com/perl/ptp/usni/?ptp_photo_id=312781
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    Graviton
    Yankee (13.5 mt)


    Joined: Sep 03, 2006
    Posts: 1552
    Location: USA

    PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 6:44 pm Reply with quote

    I don't agree about this being from a Japanese nuclear bombing:



    Some reasons:

    Click thumbnail to enlarge
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    Teller25
    Cherokee (3.8 mt)


    Joined: Aug 22, 2007
    Posts: 254
    Location: Spain

    PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 7:43 pm Reply with quote

    Graviton wrote:
    I have to scoff at the imbalance of these links from so-called human rights interests.

    Where is the outrage at Japanese atrocities, including their invention of using plague/biological warfare in the 20th century, and wholesale massacre of entire communities like Nanjing, in the hundreds of thousands at individual scenes.


    Yes, the Japanese were brutal but not as much as the U.S. military, bombing civilians when the nation was totally defeated that is the definition of a war crime.
    Consider the view of Admiral William D. Leahy:
    "The use of this barbarous weapon at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. . . . My own feeling was that in being the first to use it, we had adopted an ethical standard common to the barbarians of the Dark Ages. I was not taught to make wars in that fashion, and wars cannot be won by destroying women and children".
    Or Leo Szilard’s:
    "If the Germans had dropped atomic bombs on cities instead of us, we would have defined the dropping of atomic bombs on cities as a war crime, and we would have sentenced the Germans who were guilty of this crime to death at Nuremberg and hanged them".
    The destruction of Hiroshima and Nagasaki was a war crime worse than any that Japanese generals were executed for in Tokyo and Manila. If Harry Truman was not a war criminal, then no one ever was.

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    sonicbomb
    Forum Admin
    Forum Admin


    Joined: Aug 06, 2006
    Posts: 1712
    Location: UK

    PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 8:42 pm Reply with quote

    Grapple wrote:
    Only the black & white version show above.For the color version i only have this link:

    http://pictopia.com/perl/ptp/usni/?ptp_photo_id=312781



    I meant this one.
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    Graviton
    Yankee (13.5 mt)


    Joined: Sep 03, 2006
    Posts: 1552
    Location: USA

    PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 9:27 pm Reply with quote

    Teller, this is more of your misguided ideology of hating USA government in general, and your ignorance of its political complexity.

    Of course anyone can find some comments by dissidents and falsely establish some far out spin on morality without looking at the wider facts in context.

    Maybe you hate USA influence around the world because our immense USA economy was built on a far less socialist and militaristic theme than Europe. You have far left views in your political pattern shown in a litany of previous posts.

    Innovation flourishes without bossism societies like socialist countries stagnated with bureaucracy and state control of major industries -- concentrating corruptive influence among politicians and warrior despots -- that hugely degrades competition and reasonable profit that would otherwise inspire innovation and economic growth.

    Teller, you do not understand at all what you are thinking about USA being worse than Japanese in the 1930s and 1940s.

    You need to keep in mind that Japanese were the first ever to start biological warfare laboratory studies on this planet in a plan to slaughter Chinese in the many millions. Yes, this is genocide. Just a few of many examples:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Changde_chemical_weapon_attack

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaimingye_germ_weapon_attack

    Quote:
    The historian Chalmers Johnson has written that:

    It may be pointless to try to establish which World War Two Axis aggressor, Germany or Japan, was the more brutal to the peoples it victimised. The Germans killed six million Jews and 20 million Russians [i.e. Soviet citizens]; the Japanese slaughtered as many as 30 million Filipinos, Malays, Vietnamese, Cambodians, Indonesians and Burmese, at least 23 million of them ethnic Chinese. Both nations looted the countries they conquered on a monumental scale, though Japan plundered more, over a longer period, than the Nazis. Both conquerors enslaved millions and exploited them as forced labourers — and, in the case of the Japanese, as [forced] prostitutes for front-line troops. If you were a Nazi prisoner of war from Britain, America, Australia, New Zealand or Canada (but not Russia) you faced a 4% chance of not surviving the war; [by comparison] the death rate for Allied POWs held by the Japanese was nearly 30%.[10]

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_war_crimes

    According to the findings of the Tokyo Tribunal, the death rate among POWs from Asian countries, held by Japan was 27.1%.[11] The death rate of Chinese POWs was much larger because — under a directive ratified on August 5, 1937 by Emperor Hirohito — the constraints of international law on treatment of those prisoners was removed.[12] Only 56 Chinese POWs were released after the surrender of Japan.[13]


    Do I need to remind you of the fact about Japanese policy of attempting to kill nearly EVERYBODY whom they could not use for prostitution or slave labor? This is a fact. Consider the slaughters of sometimes hundreds of thousands in individual communities by Japanese soldiers on the ground while they laughed:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanking_Massacre

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Changjiao_massacre

    http://www.kangzhan.org/node/25 Japanese proudly captured a humiliated, naked Chinese woman holding her baby, while her mouth was being penetrated by a bayonet. See this and other things Japanese soldiers did with smiles on their faces.

    Wow, your recollection or awareness of history is appalling, yet you make such ludicrous posts just because of your ideology not based on widely known and established facts.

    You also goofed up in not confronting the reality that the atomic bombs also saved possible millions of lives. The Japanese were far from defeated, despite the blockade, considering how far the Japanese were willing to go in numerous examples facing similar starvation tactics. These same people fought in battles where thousands of combatant Japanese died in battles, leaving little more than a dozen survivors captured alive after many thousands died. You ignore the repeated battles with figures where Japanese refused to give up to damned close the last man. You also refuse to confront the fact that a Russian attack on the island would have led to far, far, far worse slaughter in the use of Russian strategy that invokes far greater slaughter in battles in Russian style. The atomic bombs saved hugely many Japanese lives from a massive invasion's costs.

    What if the Russians won in Japan? It would not be the rich nation it is today. It would be poor like eastern European nations. Japan also has much more democracy than its neighbors, except for south Korea, also influenced by USA helping to reconstruct and protect the South Korean and Japanese economies in the late 1940s and 1950s. The Russians have a singular history of only stealing resources of former Soviet nations to feed its collapsing economy that went belly up in the late 1980s.

    For the record, my father would have been a Navy medic assisting US Marines in the invasion of Japan, certainly the most dangerous job in the War of the Pacific. He thanks God that the war ended quickly with the atomic bombs. Japanese lives were also saved in the process of quickly shortening the war.

    Teller, I wish you would quit making a historical embarrassment out of yourself with your sweeping ideology against "Americans," which you have clearly shown a pattern in previous posts. Yes, USA has done many things that needing criticism and putting a small group of criminals away for such crimes, and yet has a forum for cleaning up such tragedy ... and has repeatedly punished such exceptions internally. You make an ignorant ideolog of yourself when comparing USA to Japanese forces before and during WW2, and even worse in saying USA was worse than Japanese.
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    Blake
    Tewa (5 mt)


    Joined: Jun 25, 2007
    Posts: 680
    Location: Florida

    PostPosted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 3:48 am Reply with quote

    Graviton wrote:
    Teller, this is more of your misguided ideology of hating USA government in general, and your ignorance of its political complexity.

    Teller, you do not understand at all what you are thinking about USA being worse than Japanese in the 1930s and 1940s.

    Do I need to remind you of the fact about Japanese policy of attempting to kill nearly EVERYBODY whom they could not use for prostitution or slave labor? This is a fact. Consider the slaughters of sometimes hundreds of thousands in individual communities by Japanese soldiers on the ground while they laughed:

    http://www.kangzhan.org/node/25 Japanese proudly captured a humiliated, naked Chinese woman holding her baby, while her mouth was being penetrated by a bayonet. See this and other things Japanese soldiers did with smiles on their faces.

    Wow, your recollection or awareness of history is appalling, yet you make such ludicrous posts just because of your ideology not based on widely known and established facts.

    Teller, I wish you would quit making a historical embarrassment out of yourself with your sweeping ideology against "Americans," which you have clearly shown a pattern in previous posts. Yes, USA has done many things that needing criticism and putting a small group of criminals away for such crimes, and yet has a forum for cleaning up such tragedy ... and has repeatedly punished such exceptions internally. You make an ignorant ideolog of yourself when comparing USA to Japanese forces before and during WW2, and even worse in saying USA was worse than Japanese.


    Sorry for quoting such a large amount of your post, but there's just so much good stuff here. I've taken a beating on some weather blogs, and it feels good to read the truth again. Great post.
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    Grapple
    Sunset (1 mt)


    Joined: Mar 03, 2008
    Posts: 115
    Location: Malden Island

    PostPosted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 3:40 pm Reply with quote

    Quote:
    "I don't agree about this being from a Japanese nuclear bombing."


    Ok...you´re right in some points.There´s no conclusive evidence to identify this photo,however i think it need more investigation.

    For Sonicbomb:

    http://img399.imageshack.us/my.php?image=hhhhhhxg9.jpg

    Groundlevel photographers.
    Left: Seizo Yamada(6,5km from ground zero),right: Toshio Fukada(2,5km from ground zero).

    [img][/img]

    A view of the Hiroshima explosion from another angle(bad quality):

    [img][/img][/img]
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    Graviton
    Yankee (13.5 mt)


    Joined: Sep 03, 2006
    Posts: 1552
    Location: USA

    PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 12:45 am Reply with quote



    I can see the breakaway kink in this view, but the breakaway top is almost aligned toward the viewer.

    This photo in question was neither over Hiroshima or Nagasaki.


    Last edited by Graviton on Thu Mar 13, 2008 2:03 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Teller25
    Cherokee (3.8 mt)


    Joined: Aug 22, 2007
    Posts: 254
    Location: Spain

    PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 1:13 am Reply with quote

    Today self-styled conservatives slander as "anti-American" anyone who is in the least troubled by Truman's masacre of so many tens of thousands Japanese innocents from the air. (However we should note that talking about "Truman's decision" is just naive and comes from the need to place the guilt on someone but that's really not fair, the Manhattan project was the biggest and most expensive effort ever conducted by humankind, the best minds on Earth worked for years together in a single problem, billions were spent, so it was not like they asked a Missouri farmer without a college degree for permission to use the bomb, he was merely informed of the project and the outcome of it, the forces inside America that were determined not to "waste" that gigantic effort are hard to imagine and were unstoppable).

    Comparing the moral of two nations is very difficult and is not serious but a crime greater than the atomic bombings is hard to conceive. Yes, Japan was responsible for atrocities with chemical and biological weapons but if you read your history you'll find that those criminals responsible for the Japanese program were only rewarded by the U.S. and their research used for the American's own WMD program.


    Returning to the thread of the Atomic attack, after reading hundreds of documents on the subject the only conclusion I could reach is that the purpose of this attack was never to make Japan to surrender, it was primarily a cruel experiment with their new expensive weapons, and it was also a way to stop Soviet expansion. (In Grove's own words after Trinity "Now we have something to subdue the Russians").

    The American military in no way exhausted all the possibilities of ending the war without recourse to the atomic bomb, because they wanted to attack Japan with it. Japan was starving, they had no fuel, no weapons (presumably a significant stockpile of bamboo spears existed in Hiroshima and Nagasaki because women and children used to train with them everyday to fight the invasion, however most of them were destroyed by the fission weapons) and most of her cities had been reduced to ashes by conventional bombings, of course some of them were spared to properly conduct their experiment. It was the insistence on unconditional surrender that was the root of all evil.

    Think about this, of course the battles were fierce, and MOST Japanese would rather die than surrender but what nobody ever says is that the Americans demanded UNCONDITIONAL surrender prior to the bombings in order to allow the completion of the nuclear weapons before Japan ended the war, obviously unconditional surrender would have meant to hang the Emperor that was like a God and the escence of Japan. Do you imagine some country that demanded to hang the American President all the congressmen, forbid the church and dismantle the U.S. military? that only begins to explain what unconditional surrender meant to Japan, it was unacceptable, and the U.S. was fully aware of this, so only after completing their experiment with both types of weapons they were ready to accept more favorable terms for Japan, making them to surrender a few days later.

    As you may or may not know the bombs were dropped with NO WARNING, on CIVILIAN TARGETS, TWICE. Japan had been seeking for months to end the war with the help of the Soviet Union, but Fat Man was rapidly assembled, skipping many of the check out procedures in order to use it as soon as possible to avoid the end of the war before the experiment with the plutonium weapon was completed. A meeting was being held by Japan´s higher authorities to end the war at the same moment that Nagasaki was destroyed.

    It is easy to simply assume that the bombs saved millions of American and Japanese lives because they ended the war but that is not more than cheap propaganda, it is more historically accurate to state that they actually sacrificed thousands of American and Japanese lives when the government made American soldiers fight to death for demands everyone knew were stupid and unreasonable while they waited for the bomb. Conditions for ending the war just like those accepted by America after the atomic attacks were offered by Japan to the American and British before the bombings but they were rejected to make sure the war continued and that at least two bombs could be used. So the bomb actually delayed the end of the war, that is History not ideology. And that is why the bombings were a crime from every point of view.



    Last edited by Teller25 on Thu Mar 27, 2008 7:53 pm; edited 7 times in total
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    Graviton
    Yankee (13.5 mt)


    Joined: Sep 03, 2006
    Posts: 1552
    Location: USA

    PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 2:39 am Reply with quote

    Teller, this is more of your twisted slander against USA and wild overgeneralizations of "Americans."

    You refuse to contextualize history, and you made the dreadful mistake of moral equivalency so often abused by far left (and far right) interests that are equally filled with lies and are therefore equally repugnant.

    Teller, you are also so filled with misinformation and false ideology that you don't even acknowledge that there are millions of moderate liberals who also supported the atomic bombings to save millions ... by golly, then president Harry Truman was also a liberal. No, your far leftist signature vilification of conservatives is totally demolished by facts in history. By golly again, John F. Kennedy was also a liberal who resumed nuclear testing and led us through the Cuban Missile Crisis. Oops, by golly, roll back the clock more: former president and liberal New Yorker FD Roosevelt was also a liberal.

    Read here. [Liberal = Democrat, Conservative = Republican]

    Teller, you are digging a deeper hole with your ideological errors and glaring lack of basic historical knowledge, and it lessens your credibility immensely.

    You might ask why I have this tone?

    1. It's because you make such serious accusations without accurate or wider, established facts.

    2. You also don't care about truth in your refusal to confront your errors, contradictions, and the highly positive political and economic results that USA brought to Japan, South Korea, Austria, and 2/3 of Germany after WW2.

    Try to recall the Wirtschaftswunder ("Economic Miracle") that Germans and Austrians tout to this day of the USA Marshall Plan, which would never have been possible without massive USA aid.

    Japan is also a powerhouse of the Far East, because of the USA MacArthur Plan, far unlike what tyrannical rule and resources theft the Soviets brought to those whom they conquered. Read here from a Japanese perspective how the "Americans" worked closely with the Japanese, and MacArthur pulling in the cultural influence of insisting on the Emperor remaining in power so as not to disrespect the importance his role had in Japanese culture, even after their military defeat -- an insisted concession by MacArthur to the Japanese system against the wishes of then-president Harry Truman, again a liberal.
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    Teller25
    Cherokee (3.8 mt)


    Joined: Aug 22, 2007
    Posts: 254
    Location: Spain

    PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 2:48 am Reply with quote

    Graviton wrote:
    Teller, this is more of your twisted slander against USA and wild overgeneralizations of "Americans."

    You refuse to contextualize history, and you made the dreadful mistake of moral equivalency so often abused by far left (and far right) interests that are equally filled with lies and are therefore equally repugnant.

    Teller, you are also so filled with misinformation and false ideology that you don't even acknowledge that there are millions of moderate liberals who also supported the atomic bombings to save millions ... by golly, then president Harry Truman was also a liberal. No, your far leftist signature vilification of conservatives is totally demolished by facts in history. By golly again, John F. Kennedy was also a liberal who resumed nuclear testing and led us through the Cuban Missile Crisis. Oops, by golly, roll back the clock more: former president and liberal New Yorker FD Roosevelt was also a liberal.

    Read here. [Liberal = Democrat, Conservative = Republican]

    Teller, you are digging a deeper hole with your ideological errors and glaring lack of basic historical knowledge, and it lessens your credibility immensely.

    You might ask why I have this tone?

    1. It's because you make such serious accusations without accurate or wider, established facts.

    2. You also don't care about truth in your refusal to confront your errors, contradictions, and the highly positive political and economic results that USA brought to Japan, South Korea, Austria, and 2/3 of Germany after WW2.

    Try to recall the Wirtschaftswunder ("Economic Miracle") that Germans and Austrians tout to this day of the USA Marshall Plan, which would never have been possible without massive USA aid.

    Japan is also a powerhouse of the Far East, because of the USA MacArthur Plan, far unlike what tyrannical rule and resources theft the Soviets brought to those whom they conquered. Read here from a Japanese perspective how the "Americans" worked closely with the Japanese, and MacArthur pulling in the cultural influence of insisting on the Emperor remaining in power so as not to disrespect the importance his role had in Japanese culture, even after their military defeat -- an insisted concession by MacArthur to the Japanese system against the wishes of then-president Harry Truman, again a liberal.


    I find much criticism against my beliefs but not a single historical fact that contradicts my conclusions. I think that Robert Lewis gave us the best phrase to remember those acts "My God, what have we done?"
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    Grapple
    Sunset (1 mt)


    Joined: Mar 03, 2008
    Posts: 115
    Location: Malden Island

    PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 3:50 pm Reply with quote

    Graviton wrote:

    I can see the breakaway kink in this view, but the breakaway top is almost aligned toward the viewer.

    This photo in question was neither over Hiroshima or Nagasaki.



    This is the Hiroshima explosion.Soon i will post a diferent frame of the Hiroshima explosion film...the cloud show in this movie is identical to this image.
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    Grapple
    Sunset (1 mt)


    Joined: Mar 03, 2008
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    Location: Malden Island

    PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 11:27 pm Reply with quote

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    Graviton
    Yankee (13.5 mt)


    Joined: Sep 03, 2006
    Posts: 1552
    Location: USA

    PostPosted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 2:08 am Reply with quote

    Quote:
    I find much criticism against my beliefs but not a single historical fact that contradicts my conclusions. I think that Robert Lewis gave us the best phrase to remember those acts "My God, what have we done?"


    Common sense: your views lack context, and are only based on your highly untruthful comparison of USA to Japanese before and during the war. The military moves in dropping the bombs, after intense, very widely covered (by press) pre-warnings to Japanese to end the war without such bloodshed, SAVED POSSIBLE MILLIONS OF LIVES. But no, Teller, you just grab at a small minority of dissent that happens in every highly political situation.

    I also gave facts that highly contradicted Teller's ignoring the joyful Japanese brutality in slowly slaughtering and torturing Chinese, while Japanese also used biological and chemical warfare to kill countless Chinese. USA also did not do what the Japanese did: the Japanese killed everyone they could not use for slave labor or prostitution.

    Teller also selectively ignores that USA government did the most it could to improve Japan immediately after the war, while respecting many Japanese traditions and pivotal influences that the Soviets would have tried to destroy and slaughter.

    Context, context, context. NOT just Teller's spin of anti-"Americans" propaganda.
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    Teller25
    Cherokee (3.8 mt)


    Joined: Aug 22, 2007
    Posts: 254
    Location: Spain

    PostPosted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 5:01 pm Reply with quote

    Yes, there were thousands of Japanese war criminals, but certainly they were not the civilians that were burned in Hiroshima, and some of those criminals probably ended up working in fort Dietrich, so the bomb was not really a punishment for them.

    Graviton wrote:

    USA also did not do what the Japanese did: the Japanese killed everyone they could not use for slave labor or prostitution

    True, the U.S. military simply chose to kill everyone, that's the purpose of a surprise nuclear attack against a civilian target.

    Also it's not a trick on my part to ignore the Postwar economic miracle and what the U.S. did for Europe and Japan. I do it simply because I thought we were discussing events which took place in 1945.
    For six decades Americans have been snookered into complacency over the war crimes committed by the U.S. government in its total war against the Japanese public. Lulled to sleep with the deceit that the atomic bombings saved the lives of a million American boys. Opinion polls over the last fifty years show that American citizens overwhelmingly (between 80 and 90%) believe this false history which, of course, makes them feel better about killing hundreds of thousands of Japanese civilians (mostly women and children) and saving American lives to accomplish the ending of the war.

    The rationale for the atomic bombings has come to rest on a single colossal fabrication, which has is now routinely repeated in high-school and college textbooks and bandied about by ignorant commentators.
    Still, American multiple deceptions and self-deceptions are understandable, considering the horror they unleashed
    It is equally understandable that the U.S. occupation authorities censored reports from the shattered cities and did not permit films and photographs of the thousands of corpses and the frightfully mutilated survivors to reach the public. Otherwise, Americans – and the rest of the world – might have drawn disturbing comparisons to scenes then coming to light from the Nazi concentration camps.

    Graviton wrote:

    The military moves in dropping the bombs, after intense, very widely covered (by press) pre-warnings to Japanese to end the war without such bloodshed, SAVED POSSIBLE MILLIONS OF LIVES. But no, Teller, you just grab at a small minority of dissent that happens in every highly political situation.


    I don’t really know what war you are talking about. The Japanese were not informed that they would be the victims of by far the most lethal weapon ever invented, for the record they were TWO SNEAK NUCLEAR ATTACKS AGAINST CIVILIAN TARGETS. Maybe you are referring to the only warning of this attack that was given to the Japanese. Yes, leaflets were dropped in Nagasaki warning of the bomb, but unfortunately they chose to drop the bomb first and the leaflets later. Few survivors were healthy enough to read them.

    I won’t repeat the historically supported reasons expressed in previous post I’ll just go a little deeper on some of them in the hope to be better understood.
    Truman postponed the Potsdam Conference and his meeting with Stalin until they could know, at the conference, if the atomic bomb was successfully tested. Truman issued a proclamation to the Japanese, threatening them with the "utter devastation" of their homeland unless they surrendered unconditionally. Among the Allied terms, to which "there are no alternatives," was that there be "eliminated for all time the authority and influence of those who have deceived and misled the people of Japan into embarking on world conquest [sic]." "Stern justice," the proclamation warned, "would be meted out to all war criminals."

    To the Japanese, this meant that the emperor – regarded by them to be divine, the direct descendent of the goddess of the sun – would certainly be dethroned and probably put on trial as a war criminal and hanged, perhaps in front of his palace. It was not, in fact, the U.S. intention to dethrone or punish the emperor. But this implicit modification of unconditional surrender was never communicated to the Japanese. (Why? to use the bombs when ready, they needed a little more time to complete the weapons so the unconditional surrender demand was a guarantee that the war was not going to end) , the Americans left in place the unconditional surrender policy, thereby causing both Truman and Byrnes to believe that the terms would not be accepted by Japan. In the end, after Nagasaki, Washington acceded to the Japanese desire to keep the dynasty and even to retain Hirohito as emperor. The stark fact is that the Japanese leaders, both military and civilian, including the Emperor, were willing to surrender in May of 1945 if the Emperor could remain in place and not be subjected to a war crimes trial after the war.

    UNCONDITIONAL SURRENDER WAS AN OPEN INVITATION TO UNCONDITIONAL RESISTANCE!!! The bombs not only killed hundreds of thousands of innocent Japanese civilians but also thousands of Americans by prolonging the war, ERGO, IT DID NOT SAVE LIVES.
    Remember that the bombings were not the last step of WW2, but the first step of the Cold War.

    It’s evident that that the bombings were both unnecessary and immoral.
    In Eisenhower’s own words "It wasn’t necessary to hit them with that awful thing . . . to use the atomic bomb, to kill and terrorize civilians, without even attempting [negotiations], was a double crime."



    Last edited by Teller25 on Thu Mar 27, 2008 7:55 pm; edited 3 times in total
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