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    sonicbomb.com :: View topic - Will the gun law ever change in the US?

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    N1
    Baker (23 kt)


    Joined: Jul 17, 2007
    Posts: 39

    PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 6:28 am Reply with quote

    Can someone please give me a reasonable explation, why is this old law still in effect?
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    revolutionman
    Cherokee (3.8 mt)


    Joined: Jun 14, 2009
    Posts: 406

    PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 4:05 pm Reply with quote

    Guns + money + drugs + murders + police + hicks + deep south + ammo + having a gun for protection against... mentality + having a gun to be tough mentality + rasicm = one insane goddamn dang country I tell ya...
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    N1
    Baker (23 kt)


    Joined: Jul 17, 2007
    Posts: 39

    PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 7:34 am Reply with quote

    Then why hasn't it changed already? Can it be changed?
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    bueschu
    Cherokee (3.8 mt)


    Joined: Mar 17, 2008
    Posts: 420

    PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 10:39 pm Reply with quote

    We have a similar problem here in Switzerland: Military-service is compulsory and after you've served your term you keep your rifle or pistol (depending on your branch). Guess what's the weapon of choice when daddy suddenly sees no future anymore and decides that he and his family need to die... Confused
    And yet: Many politicians still adamantly defend that tradition and it will take them a lot of time to get over it, I guess.
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    N1
    Baker (23 kt)


    Joined: Jul 17, 2007
    Posts: 39

    PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 5:09 am Reply with quote

    It cant be that bad. I mean look at the US with the ghettos and gangs and the teenagers on antidepressents shooting poor people in schools.
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    bueschu
    Cherokee (3.8 mt)


    Joined: Mar 17, 2008
    Posts: 420

    PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 10:45 am Reply with quote

    Sure, Switzerland isn't the US in terms of crime rates, but compared to the size of our population (7 millions), guns are significant problem too around here, I'd say: Almost 300 people are killed with army-pistols or rifles every year (suicides included). That would equal 12000 to 15000 dead per year in the US (pop: around 300 millions).
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    revolutionman
    Cherokee (3.8 mt)


    Joined: Jun 14, 2009
    Posts: 406

    PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 3:58 pm Reply with quote

    Guns are getting worse in Southern Ontario here. Some articles and that movie by the fat guy say Canada has few gun deaths but that is BS. There are many gun deaths everyday and not everyone is reported in the media, Toronto is getting terrible crime of just specific gangs, and teenagers, for robbing such things as a simple as an ipod and shooting someone for it. It's creeping out to the rest of the GTA fast. Oh and there is probably the biggest crack and crystal meth problem in the entire country in the area, that involves guns and drug dealers. The town I live in, is known by even complete strangers in other provinces as the crack capital of Canada.
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    N1
    Baker (23 kt)


    Joined: Jul 17, 2007
    Posts: 39

    PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 6:11 pm Reply with quote

    I hear you. Yeah, kinda makes you feel helpless.
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    Blurredweasel
    Grable (15 kt)


    Joined: Dec 17, 2008
    Posts: 29
    Location: Ontario, Canada

    PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 10:00 am Reply with quote

    revolutionman wrote:
    Guns are getting worse in Southern Ontario here. Some articles and that movie by the fat guy say Canada has few gun deaths but that is BS. There are many gun deaths everyday and not everyone is reported in the media, Toronto is getting terrible crime of just specific gangs, and teenagers, for robbing such things as a simple as an ipod and shooting someone for it. It's creeping out to the rest of the GTA fast. Oh and there is probably the biggest crack and crystal meth problem in the entire country in the area, that involves guns and drug dealers. The town I live in, is known by even complete strangers in other provinces as the crack capital of Canada.


    And it doesn't have to be Jane and Finch anymore.
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    revolutionman
    Cherokee (3.8 mt)


    Joined: Jun 14, 2009
    Posts: 406

    PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 4:42 am Reply with quote

    haha that's right. Now it's other Toronto spots, Pickering, Ajax, "White"by, and crackton, I mean Oshawa. Lots of the gun violence is not reported in the media, a lot of times it is also found out through word of mouth. Especially when you used to unfortunately know people involved in the drug culture such as idiot former friends, or a now clean sibling.
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    Blurredweasel
    Grable (15 kt)


    Joined: Dec 17, 2008
    Posts: 29
    Location: Ontario, Canada

    PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 7:24 am Reply with quote

    revman: Don't forget Hamilton. It's kinda like a mini TO.

    If you look at Hamilton, it kinda shows its age. You know, kinda dirty in some places, homeless people sleeping in doorways, freaky people wondering around King and James. But here's the part that kills me. If you go over the Sky Way and make that first right by Joseph Brante hospital and then get to about Brante St., it's beautiful looking. It's like day and night freaking difference between the two. And most people think Oakville is ritzy-tizzy. No, Halton's the place.
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    revolutionman
    Cherokee (3.8 mt)


    Joined: Jun 14, 2009
    Posts: 406

    PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 4:50 pm Reply with quote

    Oh man I think it finally snowed here for once. Oh wait it's just guns and cocaine.
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    Blurredweasel
    Grable (15 kt)


    Joined: Dec 17, 2008
    Posts: 29
    Location: Ontario, Canada

    PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 10:31 pm Reply with quote

    revman: I don't mean to stray off of N1's topic to far, but I have to share this one with you. I got a laugh out of it, but my passenger didn't.

    Girl gets in my taxi and gives a destination but needs to make a stop along the way. She's describing the street corner and house 'cause she doesn't know the exact address. I know the exact place she's talking about and what it's known for. We're almost there, and there's a police car sitting in the driveway. She says "Oh, maybe I wont get out here, I'll jump out a couple of blocks down." She pays the fare and leaves. As I'm driving away, I'm laughing to myself thinking "gotta hate when the cops interrupt your drug run."

    As for the topic of guns, or firearm related offenses, it's not all that prevalent where I am. Usually a search warrant executed on a drug house turns up unregistered guns.
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    N1
    Baker (23 kt)


    Joined: Jul 17, 2007
    Posts: 39

    PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 5:57 am Reply with quote

    At least over there in Canada if it gets really bad you could change the laws a bit. Here in the US, the NRA and other powerful organizations/corporations/lobbyists would never allow such a thing. Is it also in the constitution of Canada?
    I'm reading this from the RKBA:
    Quote:
    "To ban guns because criminals use them is to tell the innocent and law-abiding that their rights and liberties depend not on their own conduct, but on the conduct of the guilty and the lawless, and that the law will permit them to have only such rights and liberties as the lawless will allow... For society does not control crime, ever, by forcing the law-abiding to accommodate themselves to the expected behavior of criminals. Society controls crime by forcing the criminals to accommodate themselves to the expected behavior of the law-abiding."
    -- Jeff Snyder, Oct 20, 1994
    What a load of horsecrap. What, people are going to do the job of the Police? "Law abiding citizens" would do just as well without the guns.
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    Graviton
    Yankee (13.5 mt)


    Joined: Sep 03, 2006
    Posts: 1552
    Location: USA

    PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 4:01 pm Reply with quote

    Some notable quotations making it clear in the fundamental importance of citizens' right to firearms as protection of liberties:


    Alexander Hamilton, "The best we can hope for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed." the Federalist Papers at 184-8

    "The whole of the Bill [of Rights] is a declaration of the right of the people at large or considered as individuals... It establishes some rights of the individual as unalienable and which consequently, no majority has a right to deprive them of." ALBERT GALLATIN of the NY Historical Society, October 7, 1789

    Elbridge Gerry Representative "What, sir, is the use of a militia? It is to prevent the establishment of a standing army, the bane of liberty." Rep. of Massachusetts, I Annals of Congress at 750 (August 17, 1789).

    George Mason "I ask, sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people, except for a few public officials.", 3 Elliot, Debates at 425-426.

    George Washington "A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government." -- George Washington

    George Washington "A free people ought...to be armed..." speech of Jan. 7, 1790 in the Boston Independent Chronicle, Jan. 14, 1790.

    "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself! They are the American people's Liberty Teeth and keystone under Independence. From the hour the Pilgrims landed, to the present day, events, occurances, and tendencies prove that to insure peace, security, and happiness, the rifle and pistol are equally indispensable. The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere, restrains evil interference -- they deserve a place of honor with all that's good!" President George Washington, in a speech to Congress. 7 January, 1790

    James Madison "The right of the people to keep and bear...arms shall not be infringed. A well regulated militia, composed of the people, trained to arms is the best and most natural defense of a free country...", 1 Annals of Congress 434 (June 8, 1789).

    James Madison "Besides the advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation... Notwithstanding the military establishments in the several kingdoms of Europe, which are carried as far as the public resources will bear, the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms.", Federalist Papers, #46.

    Jesus Luke 11:21 "When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace."

    John Adams, "Arms in the hands of citizens [may] be used at individual discretion...in private self-defense..." A Defense of the Constitutions of the Government of the USA, 471 (1788)

    Joseph Story (Supreme Court Justice) “The right of the citizens to keep and bear arms has justly been considered as the palladium of the liberties of a republic...”

    Patrick Henry "Are we at last brought to such a humiliating and debasing degradation, that we cannot be trusted with arms for our own defense? Where is the difference between having our arms in our possession and under our own direction, and having them under the management of Congress? If our defense be the real object of having those arms, in whose hands can they be trusted with more propriety, or equal safety to us, as in our own hands?, 3 Elliot Debates 168-169.

    Patrick Henry, "The great object is that every man be armed. Everyone who is able might have a gun." 3 Elliot, Debates at 386.

    Patrick Henry "Have we the means of resisting disciplined armies, when our only defence, the militia, is put in the hands of Congress?" 3 Elliot Debates at 48.

    Patrick Henry and George Mason "...the people have a right to keep and bear arms." Elliot, Debates at 185

    Richard Henry "To preserve liberty it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them..." (LIGHT HORSE HARRY) LEE, writing in Letters from the Federal Farmer to the Republic (1787-1788)

    Richard Henry "A militia, when properly formed are in fact the people themselves...and include all men capable of bearing arms." RICHARD HENRY (LIGHT HORSE HARRY) LEE, Additional Letters from the Federal Farmer (1788) at 169.

    Sam Adams "And that said Constitution be never construed to authorize Congress...to prevent the people of the United States, who are peaceable citizens, from keeping their own arms...", in the Philadelphia Independent Gazetteer, Aug. 20, 1789.

    Tench Coxe "Congress have no power to disarm the militia. Their swords, and every other terrible implement of the soldier, are the birth-right of an American... [T]he unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either the federal or state governments, but, where I trust in God it will ever remain, in the hands of the people.", Pennsylvania Gazette, Feb. 20, 1788.

    Tench Coxe "As civil rulers, not having their duty to the people duly before them, may attempt to tyrannize, and as the military forces which must be occasionally raised to defend our country, might pervert their power to the injury of their fellow citizens, the people are confirmed by the article in their right to keep and bear their private arms." in "Remarks on the First Part of the Amendments to the Federal Constitution," under the pseudonym "A Pennsylvanian" in the Philadelphia Federal Gazette, June 18, 1789.

    Thomas Jefferson "On every question of construction [of the Constitution] let us carry ourselves back to the time when the Constitution was adopted, recollect the spirit manifested in the debates, and instead of trying what meaning may be squeezed out of the text, or invented against it, conform to the probable one in which it was passed.", letter to William Johnson, June 12, 1823, found in The Complete Jefferson, p. 322

    "And what country can preserve its liberties, if its rulers are not warned from time to time, that this people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms... The tree of Liberty must be refreshed from time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants.", letter to William S. Smith, 1787, in S. Padover (Ed.), Thomas Jefferson, On Democracy (1939), p. 20.

    Thomas Jefferson In his Commonplace Book, Jefferson quotes Cesare Beccaria from his seminal work, On Crimes and Punishment: “Laws that forbid the carrying of arms... disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes... Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man.”

    "A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercises, I advise the gun. While this gives moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprise and independence to the mind. Games played with the ball and others of that nature, are too violent for the body and stamp no character on the mind. Let your gun therefore be the constant companion of your walks." Encyclopedia of T. Jefferson, 318 (Foley, Ed., 1967).

    "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms.", Proposal for a Virginia Constitution, 1 T. Jefferson Papers, 334 (C.J. Boyd, Ed. 1950)

    "The supposed quietude of a good man allures the ruffian; while on the other hand, arms like laws discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property. The same balance would be preserved were all the world destitute of arms, for all would be alike; but since some will not, others dare not lay them aside... Horrid mischief would ensue were one half the world deprived of the use of them..." I Writings of Thomas Paine at 56 (1894)

    Zacharia Johnson "The people are not to be disarmed of their weapons. They are left in full possession of them." 3 Elliot, Debates at 646.

    Even foreign critics respected Armed American citizenry:

    Japanese Admiral Yamamoto, 1941 Arms and War "You cannot invade the mainland United States; there would be a rifle behind each blade of grass."
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